Indianapolis Update and Listener Questions | PREI 057
On today’s show we speak with one of our local Indianapolis market experts and property provider about the growth and opportunities in the Indianapolis market. We have some news and updates from our Indianapolis market spotlight early this year.
I also answer several listener questions, and talk about leveraging your existing equity to build a larger portfolio with more cash flow.
If you missed last week’s episode, be sure to listen to Pros and Cons of Rehabbing and Flipping – Matty Aitchison.
Enjoy the show!
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Indianapolis Update and Listener Questions
On today’s show, I wanted to focus on Indianapolis again, but this is not a market spotlight per se. It’s really just another update on the market and what has been going on because we have had some changes there. Although Indianapolis is a perennial market for us, we’ve been there for probably ten years, if not longer. We have had some changes there. We’ve brought in a couple of new providers that we’ve been working with for about a year or more, and things have been going very, very well, clients are very happy, we’ve had many people fly out there to visit with our team; kick the dirt, see properties, see neighborhoods. They’re always very impressed. I thought, “Let’s just take another look at the Indy market and bring one of our providers on. Today, I’m going to bring on a gentleman by the name of Josh. He is one of the team members that we work with out there, who manages a large team of people. Josh, welcome to the show.
Thanks, Marco. I appreciate you having me today.
I’m happy to have you on because I think it’s a good time to take a quick look at Indy again. Like I had said, it’s a perennial market. The numbers always seem to make sense there. There’s a constant flow of inventory, which I think is very important. Before we jump in to asking that all-important question of why invest in Indianapolis, why don’t you tell our listeners a little bit about yourself and your partner, Scott, and how you guys got involved in real estate?
Scott and I worked together at a firm in the late ‘90s. It was our first experience together. We managed a high volume of investment property, generally distressed sale managements. We were acquiring properties all over the state, more of a C class or inner city-type property situation rather than what we focus on today. We did it at pretty high volume. We had probably at one point in time, over 500 properties under management. We were acquiring somewhere in the neighborhood of 20 to 40 properties a month. It was just a different time, different market than it is today. We found that it wasn’t as reliable and as certain as what we’re hoping for. That was when we first got together. We had been working together in various different operations over several years. We all know what happened in 2008. Everything went sideways in most markets. Indianapolis, it had an issue, but we didn’t really have it as it affects nationwide. We definitely had increased amount of foreclosures. That’s what I spent my time focusing on. We managed properties for Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, HUD, Chase, all the big firms. We really focused on the management and sales side of that for probably about eight years.
My partner, Scott, was building this company where there was a defined need in around 2010 for turnkey investment property providers. There was just a lot of interest in people, in our market, looking to purchase quality investment properties. There were very little providers out there that actually knew the market, had the systems in place and were able to produce it on a monthly or in a systematic basis. Our company started in 2010. I watched it from the sidelines and helped things get started and get off the ground, and make sure that all was well. I joined the team in late 2011-2012. We’ve been going ever since.
There’s a saying, “Find a need and fill it.” You certainly found that need and filled it.
It was pretty amazing as to what we’ve built looking back in the beginning. There were some people in town that we were working with some various providers and we just kept hearing stories about people doing properties in the inner city and bad experiences, that kind of thing. We knew what not to do and we knew how to do it right. It just made a whole bunch of sense. Since 2010, we’ve done about 500 properties. We currently manage about 500 properties. The majority of them are properties that we have acquired, rehabbed and marketed. We have managed them after the sale. We currently manage those 500 for I’d say about 250 to 270 investors.
When we think of Indianapolis, we know that it’s the capital of the state of Indiana. It ranks as one of the cleanest and safest city in the country. It’s about the twelfth largest city in the country. What’s interesting is that you’re essentially located in the Midwest and about 65% of the entire US population lives within a 700-mile radius of your city. That makes you, in effect, a logistical hub. Tell us about Indianapolis at a high level. Why would someone want to invest there and what are the economic drivers and reasons that someone like myself or our listeners should be looking at Indianapolis as an option?
To answer your first part of the question, we’ve been hearing that more and more from various employers. We take a lot of tech. A lot of tech has been moving in Indianapolis for its logistical location. We got a lot of firms that are managing clients on the East and West coast. This makes sense for location. I think more importantly, you’ve got the quality of housing, the cost of living, the cost of housing, all associated with that. Indianapolis is one of the main reasons why anybody, regardless of an investor or just an owner-occupant would want to purchase real estate in this market, would be the cost associated with the quality; various different markets all over the country. I think dollars per square foot and the quality of that dollar per square foot are just superior as compared to many other big cities. Looking at it as an investment side of things, Indianapolis can produce systematically and continually properties that are that 1% rent-to-price ratio, and we can do that on a newer property basis. Our typical product is a 1995 build that’s either 1995 or newer. We can generally capture that 1% to price ratio all the way up to about $150,000. I think the quality of our product, the quality of our home after rehab with the tenant in place producing income is just superior as compared to many other markets.
Job seems to be at the heart of everything. To be able to consistently produce a 1% RV ratio speaks volumes for a particular market. It just shows you that rents are in locked step with price appreciation. As far as that job growth goes, I just did a Google search here before we got on here. There’s a report that was produced by JLL. It’s a law firm. They were showing a chart here that Indianapolis has a 41.2% employment growth in the tech sector which seems to be a rapidly growing sector of your economy. From 2001 to 2015, tech employment in Indianapolis grew 41.2%. This is the eighth largest job growth for the sector in the country. That’s pretty amazing. I don’t know how many jobs that creates, but I’m sure it’s well into the thousands.
I think that not only the tech sector have we seen the growth. We rely on just a real wide base here. You’ve got many different aspects when you look at this logistically. They call Indianapolis the Crossroads of America because we have Interstate 65 and Interstate 70 crossing each other. You’ve got a logistical hub there for warehousing and obviously trucking and logistics companies. We have a huge medical and hospital employment sector. We’ve had growth in every different sector. If you had to really look at it from black white, and as you say, from a high level, it probably attributes back to the housing prices, cost of living, and rent prices. You got a lot of millennial age group people that aren’t looking to purchase houses. Our rents stayed very competitive comparatively all over. If you look at the gross rent in Indianapolis, it’s around $900. I think that $900 comparatively what that would get you around the United States, $900 will get you a very nice property here in Indianapolis. I think that attributes to all of the growth.
I guess it goes without saying the rental market is very healthy and strong. You can lease up a property fairly quickly.
No. We focus even on a higher end than that. If you look at our market and what we specialize, our average rent here is $1,200 a month. If you just do a search with our local MLS, in our metropolitan area, in our market, you look for open and available rental properties that will lead you at the top 5% of rents available. What I mean by that is after about $1,500, $1,700, there aren’t a lot of rental opportunities out there. The majority of the time, people are going to buy a property at that price point because they can’t, properties are affordable. What we find is that generally the client, the tenant that we work with is going to be of higher quality. If you’re dealing with the top 5% or 7% of renters in your marketplace, generally, you’re going to be able to have some quality tenants. That’s been our main focus since the beginning is that we were focused on properties that acquire good tenants. We’re generally located in neighborhoods, family-oriented. We are usually situated on the outside. If you look at Indianapolis as a loop around it, if you look at the 465 Interstate that surrounds the city, our properties are going to generally be located on the outside of that, more in the suburban-type situation. We really attract quality tenants, and those tenants you can depend on.
Do you consider that the mid-market?
I talked about the number, so, yes. We would consider that mid to upper market because we really don’t have a lot of higher end rentals. The problem in that market, although we would love to produce higher-end rentals, the 1% to price ratio just drops off in Indianapolis about $150,000 or $160,000.
An investor looking to invest in Indianapolis, what would that price range be that you would recommend from an investment perspective on the low and the high side?
We have two different products that we offer. The bread and butter, what we would typically talk about would be 1995 or newer three to four-bedroom, two and a half bath property. It’s going to generally be bringing rents between $1,000 and $1,300 a month. That property is generally going to be priced from $100,000 to $130,000. We also offer some more inexpensive products. We’re very selective on what we do here. Generally, in Indianapolis in the Inner City, you’ve got many different properties that could be situated very close to each other. Our city, three to four to five blocks can make a huge difference. We really try and only focus on maybe areas of the city that we know very well. We will offer some inexpensive properties there. What I mean by that, sometimes ranging between $75,000 and $100,000. What you’re going to expect for that, what the three-bedroom brick ranch built in 1950-1960. Generally, that 1% to price ratio will apply there. Sometimes, we can actually do a little better than those markets. We’re very selective and generally don’t have very much of those to offer just because, once again, we’re very concerned about those properties and we want to make sure it’s something that we have worked the neighborhood. We’re very confident in the area. We know that it’ll perform as we need it to.
I know with your particular company you guys have property management in-house. It’s a separate company or division. It rolls from one side of the business to another side of the business. Let me throw a curve ball at you here. Some investors and clients ask us if there’s any benefit to having “in-house” property management. What they mean by in-house is that the providers and the builders that we work with actually are affiliated with or are principles of another company which is the property management company. They just shuffle the paperwork from one desk to another, another office. What are the advantages, if there are any disadvantages that you want to share too, because we get this question quite often?
I think any time that you can have a seamless relationship between what we call the operations side, so where we source the property, we rehab it and then we market it. When you can have a seamless operation between that and management post-closing, I think that that’s best. However, we’ve seen it and heard from many clients that it hasn’t worked best in many other markets. The general stories that we hear is that in fact, it’s not separate or it’s not defined. You have one company doing all of it. I’ve heard that numerous times and we’ve heard a lot of bad experiences, where you have a client that purchased a property from a group and things went well, and in the management side, things didn’t go well. Generally, the feeling was they were focused on the operations side of things where they were sourcing properties and marketing properties. They weren’t so focused on the management.
It’s important to really connect that back from the beginning. In our circumstance, we have two separate companies under the same ownership group. Two separate companies, two separate licenses. Everything is completely separate. Our management side has its own employees and all money’s received in things that stay within that corporation. Our operation side has its own employees and everything stays within that. It’s just important to have those defined roles, so to speak. Our management side works day-in and day-out with our operations side with regard to new clients. Moving forward, it’s on its own. Day-to-day, as much as it’s crazy to say, I personally don’t have really anything to do with the day-to-day property management side of things. It may sound nuts but I feel like it’s a sign of a well-run company. We’ve got employees in place doing their defined roles. Certainly, we’re here if needed but only get involved with the property management as needed.
One last question. I’m going to ask you to look in your crystal ball. In the recent past, Indianapolis was ranked as the fourth most affordable city. That was by Forbes. It was the top three market for single-family rental properties, and that was by the Wall Street Journal. Indianapolis was known as the top most stable real estate market in the US. The reason people will have said that is because it declined less than 7% through the Great Recession of 2008. I think that’s true for a lot of linear markets particularly down through the Midwest. If you were to look in your crystal ball and try to tell us what you see happening in the Indy market for the next one to three years, I don’t know if that’s a stretch, what would you tell me or what would you tell an investor?
For sure, any publication is going to talk about the stability. Over 40 years, we’ve definitely won number two and number three, but generally, number one for stability in any publication. When you can have a market that we don’t talk about appreciation, it’s not something that we put in our pro formas or anything like that. When you have a market that you can generally say, “For 40 years, 3% to 5% a year like clockwork even in the ‘08 Recession, we’ve recaptured on that same trajectory line of 3% to 5%.” I think that there’s something to be said for that. When you look at our market, we stay heavily tuned in to things that are typical indicators, the market right now is deemed to be hot. We don’t attribute that to any stuff that’s not factual. A lot of times, you get a market that’s hot for various reasons. We look at it as there’s definite buyers that are ready, willing and able to purchase properties. Our market is generally considered to be hot now because there’s been a downtick in inventory, available inventory. Over in the last year, we’ve had about 5% reduction in available inventory, which has helped prices push up a little bit and help things raise a little bit. As far as that goes, we are talking 3% from last year. Any time we have market indicators that are suggesting change in our market, it’s still very low. You’re talking 3% here, 5% there. What I always circle back to is that stability.
Indianapolis is well-known for very stable property values; stable rents, stable marketplace. If I had to look into the crystal ball, so to speak, you’d say that as employment gains, as population grows here, you’re going to have a growth in real estate. We’re certainly not going to be in these other markets where you’ve seen 10%, 15%, 20% appreciation, and along with that, depreciation. That’s not something that we’ve ever had. I would have to say you can continue on the plan of being very stable. You can look at rent prices generally talking about an increase of 1% to 2% year across the board. Nothing that’s very, very extremely exciting. It’s something that’s always been progressing upward and very, very stable.
Sometimes, the boring markets are the best markets. I’m glad to hear that you mentioned stability and you don’t talk about appreciation too much because stability is the key characteristic of a linear market. You want just slow, smooth, steady growth over time. I think the markets that we’re in, in the Midwest down through towards the Southeast, really reflect that. I think Indy is a good “boring” market. I’m not implying that it’s a boring city. It’s just a smooth and steady market.
I don’t want to make it out to be that it is just completely stable. We’ve had plenty of clients that invested with us in 2010, 2011. We’re able to capture on some significant gains. We’ve got a lot of times where you’ll have different parts of our area that supply goes down. You’ve got an uptick in price for that styled property or that area or whatever. We’ve got plenty of clients that have been able to capture on higher appreciation in that 3% to 5%. It’s not something that’s just all part of the puzzle. That’s not something that we, again, talk about. A general thing that we would like to focus on is the stability in rents and the quality of tenant. As long as that continues, then we’ve got a very, very good thing. We definitely had clients that have capitalized on some appreciation upswings or different areas of our city that have become much more desirable over time. We’ve got still a lot of building starting happening right now. We’ve got an upswing and desire for different areas. That always brings appreciation as well. We’ve got a lot of different good things going on with employment, with growth here in Indiana. It’s just something that’s pretty exciting. We don’t see it changing anywhere in the near future. That’s probably the most exciting part.
That was a pretty good update. Josh, is there anything that I did not ask that maybe I should have or anything else you want to add or comment on?
No. You’re always very thorough, Marco. We appreciate the opportunity to work with you guys. I know everybody works with your counselors. We work with a large number of clients and generally the folks that come by way of you are very educated. We think very highly of the counselors. They do a great job of working with us and vetting properties and areas, and different things. If I have anything to say, you’ve done a great job in putting together a great team. I would hope your folks utilize them in every way possible.
Thanks, Josh. Those are very kind words. That speaks volumes for our listeners because it just goes to show that our listeners do want to learn everything they can and educate themselves about investing and property management and investing in real estate, and all that good stuff. Thank you for all that. We’re going to definitely keep working with you. You guys have been great. If anybody listening wants more information about the Indianapolis market or the inventory that’s out there, we do post that up on our website. You can call our office, talk to one of our investment counselors. We can have a strategy session with you just to help you out. That’s it. Josh, I appreciate you being on the show today.
No problem, Marco. I appreciate the time and anything we can do to help you. You know how to reach us.
I want to share an interesting listener question that I had just the other day. I spoke to a couple in Hawaii that owns a rental property. It’s actually two units on one particular lot. I asked them. I said, “How much is this property worth?” They said it’s worth about $600,000. Then, I asked them, “How much do you rent it for?” They said, “$2,850” which is just under $3,000. They’re sitting on a property that they own free and clear, that’s worth about $600,000. They have about a 0.4% rent-to-value ratio. As you know, we like to stick to properties that are around that 1% mark, higher if possible, anywhere from 0.8%, 0.9% ideally 1%. Here they are, equity-rich, generating about $2,300 a month net on the rent from that property. They own their home although they have a mortgage on it. They have a home, so they don’t rent. They’re basically just using the income from that property to pay their mortgage on their home. They asked me what would be a good strategy as far as that property? Obviously, the first option is to do nothing and just keep the property and sit on it and collect you $2,300 a month net cashflow. I showed them two ways where they could leverage that equity into larger cashflows and higher returns because there really is no such thing as a return on equity. Equity is dormant. It sits in your property and it doesn’t really produce anything for you. It actually poses a problem for you because there’s downside risk.
We all know that Hawaii is very expensive. It’s possibly overpriced as are many markets along the coasts of United States. What would happen if this $600,000 property started to go down to $550,000, $500,000? You’re just going to watch your equity vaporize. It vanishes and there’s nothing you could do about it. You can’t stop it now. If you are trying to sell this property, you’re really chasing for a buyer in a down market. All you’re going to be doing is giving up the equity you could have tapped into. One option I proposed or presented to them to think about, let’s just say they sold it and they netted $500,000. They were doing this tax-free through a 1031 exchange. They could, and I’m using very round numbers here, acquire five single-family homes in another market priced around $100,000 each, so five times $100,000, it gives you that $500,000 in equity. That should generate about $5,000 a month gross rental income, because I’m looking at this as a 1% rent-to-value ratio. Now, you take that $5,000 a month in gross rent, you subtract 10% for management. I’m just going to take a round number here, $500, another 10% for maintenance repairs and vacancy allowance, although that might be a tad low. It is sufficient enough to work with in this example. What we have here is about $4,000 a month in net income.
What they’ve done is they’ve exchanged that equity into more property in another market and gone from $2,300 a month net to approximately $4,000 per month net. If we subtract property taxes and insurance, we come out to about $3,500 per month net. That is after all expenses. We’ve gone from about $2,300 a month to $3,500 a month in cashflow. They still have their same equity. All they’ve done is they’ve moved it from one property into five properties. That equity is still there. They’ve reduced or potentially eliminated their downside risk as far as that market coming down and eroding that equity that they have built up over the years in that duplex. Now, they stand to be in a better market, with potentially better long-term prospects. Now, they have five properties with larger cashflow. That was scenario one.
Scenario two is, again, hypothetically, they could take that equity and leverage it. Let’s just say they went with a 50% loan, whether it’s a portfolio loan, conventional financing, whatever the case is. Let’s just say they opted to only finance 50% of the acquisition. They could theoretically go up to 80% if they qualify. We have a situation where we have the ability to take that equity and purchase ten, not five, but ten properties of $100,000 each, each renting for $1,000 a month. Now, what we’ve done is we’ve increased our net operating income from about $3,500 to $7,000 a month. The one thing we need to deduct here obviously is the debt service. There’s obviously a cost to financing 50% of that acquisition. Now that we have $7,000 in net operating income, that represents everything that property will produce before paying off your debt service. Now, what do we have? If we take that $7,000 a month in net operating income from those ten properties, and subtract $2,684 in a mortgage payment on that $500,000 at 5%, we end up with a little over $4,300 a month. Let’s compare. We now have $4,300 per month in cashflow versus the $2,300 a month they’re getting now in net dollars. They’ve practically doubled their net cash flow from this property.
The reason I bring up this example and I wanted to talk about this specific scenario is because a lot of people find themselves in a situation where they have one or more rental properties that have a fair amount of equity sitting dormant doing nothing for them. That’s fine if that’s the position you want to be in. However, if it makes sense for you to expand your portfolio and increase your monthly cashflow while at the same time potentially lowering the downside risk because you happen to be in a cyclical market or an overheated market, where property values are far above their long-term mean, their long-term average, then this is something you should consider. If nothing more, just strategically, even if you don’t increase your cashflow, let’s just say it’s across the board wash, which I highly doubt it would be, but if that’s the case, then what you’re doing is you’re really diversifying your portfolio. You’re taking that equity out and putting it into safer property assets located in more stable markets, or potentially markets that have greater upside potential. That’s something we can discuss one-on-one because I can only talk in generalities here without knowing your individual scenario and the specifics of what you have and what you’re trying to do. It’s very hard for us to give you exact numbers, but something you can talk to us about.
Now, here’s a related question from a listener named Chad who writes in and says, “I have two investment houses. We bought these as foreclosed homes on a low price, so they are now worth about double what we bought them for. We learned about leveraging money after we bought these and we had paid cash for them, one of the houses we lived in for four years. My question is should we turn this house into a rental or sell it since we don’t have to pay capital gains because we lived in it and take the money to buy two or three rentals and leverage our money? I feel like I’m answering my own question, but the only reason we’re hesitating is I think it would be a good rental. The other issue is since we bought them so low, the depreciation factor is almost non-existent to offset our regular income. Thank you for your thoughts.” There are a number of things in here. First and foremost is this, you haven’t given me any numbers as far as what the property value is or how much you could rent for. Not knowing that, I can’t say whether it makes sense or not. However, what we do know is you have two properties, free and clear, you’re living in one and you’re considering selling or moving and using those as rentals or potentially selling them and leveraging that.
You have to, first of all, look at what they’re worth and what you could rent them for. Even if you do that, let’s just say it makes sense, you can get 1% rent-to-value ratio or higher than it might make sense to keep them. However, if you’re in an overpriced market or there’s a lot of downside risk, you might want to consider looking to do a 1031 tax deferred exchange out of those properties, especially if you had purchased them. I don’t know what your purchase price was, but at a low purchase price, and now you’re depreciating something that could be increased by moving your equity into new properties. Now, you start to clock all over on that 27.5-year straight line depreciation. It might be in your best interest. Now, you have the depreciation on these new properties, assuming that’s what you did. You would obviously be buying smart, you’ll be buying in markets that make sense on properties that have that 1% rent-to-value ratio. Now, you know have good rates of return and good cashflow on those properties.
Depending on how much equity you have on those, you could obviously leverage that up to four properties, six properties. I’m not sure because, again, I don’t know what the market value is on these properties. It sounds like just at a very high level that you may be better off moving, whether you rent or buy, that’s another question, but taking the equity from these two properties, leveraging them up into a larger portfolio of income-producing properties in one or two different markets, and then leveraging them with whatever makes sense to you, 70%-75% or 80% loan-to-value. Then you’re just putting the 20%, 25% down.
I think, Chad, if you want to get in touch with one of our investment counselors and just present the numbers in the market that you’re in, we can give you a more detailed answer because right now, it’s hard to get into the weeds with you without knowing those specifics. However, it’s similar to the previous example with the couple in Hawaii that has a lot of equity. They’re equity rich and cashflow poor, where they could about double their cashflow and still have the depreciation tax benefit as well as lower their downside risks. You may be in an exact same position. Anyway, I hope that helps. It’s a general answer to a general question.
Here’s one more question for today. Patrick Wrightson says, “Best way to get started in real estate? I only have $4,000 in cash and I only have about $1,000 per month indisposable income. What is the best way to obtain a rental property?” That’s unfortunately not a tough question to answer, but I feel bad because you’re not just there yet. Here’s what I mean. The best thing you could be doing right now is investing in yourself. Educate yourself. Spend the money, if you have to, but buy the books and the programs. I’m not talking about $30,000 coaching programs here. I’m talking about the vast amount of free knowledge and education out there on the internet, as well as inexpensive books, $20, $30, whatever they are. Just continue to educate yourself as you build up your reserves. The best thing to be doing is seeing how you can increase your income, whether that’s through your existing job and/or through building a sideline business, a part-time business. You really need to increase your inflow, your cashflow, the income that you have available to redeploy in investments, because if you don’t make that change, it doesn’t matter how much you budget or how much you save, you’re not going to save fast enough to be able to invest in rental property.
I say that to encourage you, not to discourage you, because the reality is you need to increase your income. If you are stuck in a situation where you just are not able to do that right away because of time or personal circumstance, then what I might suggest is you try to follow that same path and continue to educate yourself and potentially seek out a partner. A partner that is someone you know and trust whether they are a family member, a close friend, someone where you can work together and maybe you can find some deals. You can start building some income just through real estate itself. You can become a wholesaler, pick some neighborhoods and drive those streets and see if you can find distressed properties or distressed seller situations where you can acquire properties that you simply put under contract. You’ll need very little money, if any at all. You tie up the property and then you have a buyer ready on the other end who’s a rehabber, someone willing to buy that property. All you do is you take that contract and assign it to that buyer or that investor, who now pays you whatever it may be, $1,000, $2,000, $5,000 $10,000, just for the assignment of that contract, because you found the deal and you’re providing that deal for them.
There’s a little more work involved in that, but it is not that complicated. It’s really more about the time you’re putting in, not so much the capital resources that you need. That’s just one way to bootstrap where you are. If that helps, great, but again, you’re just not in a situation where you can pull the trigger just yet. I know you’ll get there. I wish you luck, Patrick.
That’s it for today. I appreciate you guys listening. If you have any questions, be sure to send them to the Ask Marco link on our website, PassiveRealEstateInvesting.com. If you need to talk to one of our investment counselors about your particular situation, just go ahead and give them a call at our office. Remember to subscribe on iTunes. If you haven’t done so, leave us a rating and review, if you don’t mind. That helps us spread the word. I greatly appreciate that. Thanks for listening. We’ll see you on the next episode.
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