Exploring the other side of passive real estate investing, we turn our attention to learn more about the different ways, methods, and strategies of active real estate investing. Learning both sides of the investing coin, we look at what active real estate investing is, what is involved, and how it compares to the pros and cons of its opposite. Sharing his expertise and experience is Joe McCall, investor, coach, and podcast host. He takes us deeper into wholesaling, leasing, and flipping – discussing and differentiating lease options, private lending, and more.
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Most of what we talk about on this show relate to passive real estate investing. Anything from acquisition to management to taxes to retirement accounts to market selection, neighborhood selection, all that good stuff. Some of that does apply to active real estate investing where you’re more actively involved and take greater responsibility. I don’t think I’ve ever done a show or an episode where we compare and contrast the different strategies related to active real estate investing and compare that at least at a high level to you as an investor on the passive side. This episode is dedicated to learning more about the different ways, methods and strategies about active real estate investing. Not so much to teach you how to do it, but what it is and what’s involved and how that compares the pros and cons to passive real estate investing.
That doesn’t mean that one is better than the other. There are pros and cons and you could argue and debate both and everybody has their preference. However, they have a different end result. Some are very short-term and some are long-term in terms of the investment horizon. How they’re treated from a tax perspective is different. Short-term capital gains versus long-term capital gains. Active real estate investors purchase and renovate. Typically, there are other strategies but purchase and renovate properties to flip them and to resell them as quickly as possible to maximize their profits. Sometimes they do the same but hold them in their portfolio. These investors are involved in every part of the deal, from selection to obtaining financing to personally guaranteeing the loan and managing the investment. The investor is hands-on and actively participating in making the investment pay off.
Active investing is significant from an undertaking perspective. It’s very involved and house flipping is essentially a full-time job for many people while renting out the property may require less time, especially if the investor hires a management company. Essentially, you’re rolling up your sleeves and getting involved in the many facets or parts that are involved in that process. There is a difference and for many people, they may love all the different strategies on the active side but for many people, they prefer to buy and hold and build a passive portfolio. That may start with active real estate investing and transition into more of a passive role. That’s what we’re going to talk about. With that, I’m going to introduce my guest who’s going to talk to us about everything that he has done and he has a very interesting story.
If you missed our last episode, be sure to listen to How to Overcome the Fear of Out-of-State Real Estate Investing.
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Active Real Estate Investing with Joe McCall
It’s my pleasure to welcome Joe McCall to the show. Joe has flipped over 100 properties. I’m sure it’s a lot more than that now and he’s helped students flip hundreds more. He loves doing deals and he’s coaching students all over the place and they love doing the same. He invests across multiple markets from his home in St. Louis, Missouri. He is an avid family man. He enjoys spending time with his family, going into the zoo, golfing with his boy and swimming with his girls. Joe believes the greatest part of this business is that he gets to do this stuff while working wherever he wants and whenever he wants. Joe, welcome to the show.
Marco, how are you doing?
I’m doing great. It’s great having you on. You’re an anomaly.
It’s great to finally be on your show. You have a great podcast and I’ve been following you for quite some time. I was really honored when your office contacted me. I appreciate that.
It’s my honor to have you on. We have a lot of friends in common and I’ve seen your name floating around. We have a lot of associates that are in different mastermind groups that we know of. We were talking about that before the show.
We have the same problem of there are so many good masterminds out there that it’s hard to pick one or two or three to be a part of. I used to be a part of four but I’ve cut it down to two. One that is more marketing-focused and one that is more general business leadership-focused. There are a lot of good masterminds out there.
For the audience, most of what a mastermind group is and if you’re not familiar with it, read the book Think and Grow Rich by Napoleon Hill and you’ll quickly understand. It’s an amazing way to accelerate you as a person, your personal development and even your investing and professional careers. Wouldn’t you agree with that, Joe?
Totally and I even started one here in Saint Louis that was a local mastermind once a month and it’s invite-only. I invited all the local wholesalers. One of the things we’re going to be talking about is how I do active real estate investor. I contacted as many active wholesalers as I could that were actively doing deals here in Saint Louis and I said, “Would you like to get together once a month and just mastermind?” I was reluctant. I didn’t know if anybody would say yes or if they would be worried about sharing their secrets, but on average we get fifteen people to attend. There have been times when we will have up to 30. It’s pretty crazy because once you’re in the meeting with these competitors, we do a lot of deals with each other.
Some guys will be looking for deals. Some guys will have deals already. They’re looking for buyers. Some guys will have money to lend. Some of them are like, “I know that street. I know that area. Let me give you some good advice. This is what you should do.” Sometimes they partner on deals and co-wholesale them together. I love masterminds and I encourage people all the time, even if you can’t join one or travel to go to one, start one in your market with other peers. If you’re reading this and you have rentals, if you’re a landlord, there are those real estate investment clubs and those are good, but sometimes they’re way too big. Because I made this invite-only, I had this exclusive feel to it and I jokingly called it the syndicate. I want to think of it as like a syndicate, but that hinge too much for collusion or whatever. It’s not like that at all. It’s pretty cool to be part of groups like that where there are other people that are smarter and better than you are.
You just described the benefits of being in a mastermind group. It’s like-minded people that are helping each other and you’re growing together. I was starting to say before, you’re an anomaly being on this show. A great guest and certainly warmly welcomed but at the end of the day, most of what we talk about is how do we invest from a passive perspective? I thought it’d be great to have you on. The reason I had my sister reach out to you is because I needed someone who could provide some contrast and comparison and discussion to everything that we’re calling passive real estate investing.
I may end up titling this episode Active Real Estate Investing with Joe. That’s what we’re going to talk about now. We’re going to cover the gamut. Everybody talks about flipping because there are all these darn flipping shows on HGTV and everywhere else. Let’s talk about wholesaling. Let’s talk about flipping. Let’s talk about lease options and private lending. Let’s differentiate between that stuff. I’m going to guide you through this stuff, but let’s start off with you. Tell us a little bit about yourself, where you are, what you do and how you got to where you are.
My background is in civil engineering. I’m in my mid-40s. I’m 45 years old. I went to Iowa State University. I got a degree in civil engineering. I’ve always been technically inclined and I love systems and stuff like that. I got an engineering job in building power plants all over the country. My first taste of real estate investing was after I bought my house. Three months later, my company transferred me out to California for a job in a big power plant. We rented our house out that we just bought and that tenant was a nightmare. It was horrible. That job was supposed to be two years long. It was only ten months long. I had to come back to Kansas City and there were still two months left in the lease and I was just completely frustrated. I hired a property management company. They were a good property management company, but I wasn’t expecting to pay all of the fees that I had to pay. It was always tight every month. The rent was always late every month and the property management company keeps the late fees. I didn’t get those late fees and the tenants were constantly calling about something that was broken or breaking and had to get fixed.
After that traumatic experience, I said, “I’m never going to have rental properties again.” I did a podcast myself about this because I was down in Austin, Texas visiting some of my wife’s family and having a good time there. I remembered back in 2004 or 2005 driving down to Austin because a friend of a friend had told me about this guy who was building some duplexes and managing them and selling them to investors. I thought, “That sounds interesting,” but I was recalling all of my nightmare tenants’ stories. It was really cool. I didn’t buy anything when I was down there. I wished I would’ve because back then, property values have dramatically increased. It was in a good area close to the city and stuff. He recommended two books to me. One of them is Rich Dad, Poor Dad but he recommended another book to me called Secrets of a Millionaire Landlord. That book opened my eyes because I realized if you manage your properties correctly, if you are more proactive instead of being always reactive, it’s not that bad. I started opening my eyes again to, “Real estate maybe is a good idea. Maybe it is cool.”
The gentleman who wrote it is Robert Shemin. He had a chapter on there about lease options, which got me excited like, “I can actually now lease my properties to somebody who wants to buy them. They’re going to take better care of it.” That started me on this journey. I started buying houses using traditional bank financing until I couldn’t buy any more. I started buying houses with owner financing or subject to where I was taking over mortgages. Then the market crashed and I lost my shorts during the crash. It was about 2008 that I started focusing on wholesaling. I was hemorrhaging cash on my properties and stuff like that and so I needed quick infusions of cash. I started wholesaling and I started doing some lease options. In 2009, I was able to quit my job because I was making more money wholesaling and doing lease options part-time than I was in my full-time job. I was doing about $80,000 a year with my engineering job which wasn’t bad. Three months consistently, I was making more money doing the real estate stuff. That’s when I quit my job and it’s been almost ten years. It’s crazy to think about that.
That’s an impressive story. Are you doing mostly lease options still to this day?
A mixture of a lot of things, traditional wholesaling. We’re wholesaling a bunch of properties down in Alabama about five to ten a month. What do we mean by wholesaling in case people don’t know?
I was going to ask you that. I was going to actually start with the lease options, but let’s start with wholesaling or lease options.
They’re both. I tell people all the time, first of all, we’re not real estate investors. We’re marketers. We’re not in the real estate business. We’re in the marketing business. No matter what kind of real estate you’re doing, you are primarily a marketer who does real estate investing. You’re not a real estate investor who does marketing. There’s a big difference because one of the things I learned early on where I finally started clicking and making sense was leads are the lifeblood of your business. Whether you’re getting deals off the MLS or whether you’re doing direct seller marketing, you’ve always got to have some marketing going out the door whether it’s for sellers or for buyers. We’re in the marketing business and I really started focusing on marketing bump. Whether I’m doing wholesaling or lease options, I’m looking for motivated sellers. That’s what my focus is.
I’m looking for distressed sellers that have some equity, maybe a little bit, maybe a lot. Distressed sellers that need to sell and not just want to sell. I have a huge marketing engine that’s always out there for me and my clients doing tons and tons of marketing, getting lots and lots of leads in and we make a lot of offers. If a deal comes in that has equity, I’m going to make a cash offer on it and I’ll wholesale it. If it doesn’t have much equity, I might do a lease option on it where I will either stay in the middle for the cashflow or I’ll just assign or wholesale the lease option and get out of the deal and make a quick $5,000 to $10,000.
Let me interject for a moment. I don’t want to make the assumption that everybody reading this or understands what we mean by wholesaling. Wholesaling is one of those things that coaches and gurus are always telling you to start there. It’s an easy place to start. Although I disagree with them, it’s an easy place to start and it’s often referred to as the fast cash approach to investing. The benefit is that there’s no financing involved when you’re wholesaling. Let’s clearly define what is wholesaling.
Wholesaling is when you get a property under contract and then you flip that contract to somebody else. That’s it. I find a property that’s at $0.60 to $0.70 on the dollar. I’m going to then sell that contract for a fee. I’ll either double close or I’ll do an assignment. I’ll sell that contract for $5,000 to $10,000 to another investor that’s either going to fix it up and then sell it or maybe a landlord that’s going to buy and hold it. The deals that we’re doing in Birmingham, we are selling them to turnkey providers who are then in turn, fixing it up and then either renting it out or maybe they’re fixing it up and selling it to other investors that are going to hold it. We’re buying cheap and we’re selling cheap. There are still a lot of rooms left for the end buyer.
There are a lot of different types of investing. The investors that are probably reading this blog post, the buy and hold investors, they need wholesalers because wholesalers go directly to the seller. Sometimes it’s called guerrilla warfare or guerrilla marketing or whatever. We’re going directly to the sellers. Instead of to the MLS, instead of going to banks, we’re doing a lot of direct mail. We’re doing a lot of cold calling. We’re doing a lot of Google pay-per-click and Facebook ads. We’re going directly to the sellers. We’re talking to them on the phone. We’re negotiating deals. Sometimes we’ll go to the house and these are trashed properties and we buy them super cheap. That’s it. Wholesaling is getting a property under a contract where we got 30 to 45 days to close. Sometimes we close on it, but most of the time we will sell that contract to another investor.
When I was first getting started, I didn’t like wholesaling either. I didn’t think it was sexy. I thought that’s for the beginners. That’s for the get rich quick late nights scammers. I had a negative view of it. When my back was against the wall in 2007 and 2008 and I was hammered, I had all these properties and tons of vacancies. It’s a long story. I needed the fast cash and I humbled myself. I was like, “I’m going to learn wholesale.” I bought one more course and I said, “I’m going to do what this guy says. I’m not going to question it. I’m just going to trust the system and do what he says.” I didn’t like his postcards. I thought they were ugly. I didn’t like his scripts. I thought they were offensive. I didn’t like the fact that his offers were so ridiculously low and I didn’t like the contracts because I thought they were too simple and amateurish.
I said, “I had no choice. I needed to make money and fast.” It wasn’t enough for me to buy a rental property and get a couple $300 a month in cashflow. I needed $5,000. I needed $10,000 of cash immediately. I started wholesaling. Let me just tell you the story of my first deal. I sent some postcards to a lady. She called me. It was a house that was not even in the area I was interested in. It was way out in the sticks. If anybody in St. Louis is familiar with it, it was in the area West of Warrenton which is probably an hour to an hour-and-a-half to downtown Saint Louis. I didn’t have any investors out there. She called me and was begging me to buy her home and I was ignoring her.
After her calling me four times, finally I answered the call. She said, “Please make an offer on my house.” It’s a three-family. It needed a lot of work. All of the tenants are on a month-to-month lease. I didn’t have any buyers out there and I couldn’t find any comps. I saw that it had expired the year before for about $140,000. She had listed it for $140,000 and it wouldn’t and couldn’t sell. I said, “Ma’am, I’ll offer you $50,000.” She said, “Okay.” I was like, “What?” This is my first time this has ever happened and I couldn’t believe it. Now, I’m petrified. I’m scared. I’m freaking out because she was an elderly lady too. I didn’t want to be accused of taking advantage of an elderly. I made sure that I had her son with us when we signed the contract. I pulled out all of the old courses that I bought and I looked at all the contingencies and I wrote down all the contingencies I could find.
They probably contradicted each other on the contract and I had this big, long, five-page contract. I sat down with her and I’m wanting to meet her in a public place so there would be other people there. She signed it and didn’t even read it, $50,000. I asked her, “Are you sure?” She said, “Yeah, I need this money now. I hate the property. I want to get rid of it. I don’t care about it anymore.” She tried selling it to a realtor, but she couldn’t. She just wanted to get rid of it. Her son was with her and he was cool with it. I was like, “Okay.” I stuck a sign out in the yard. I advertised it for $65,000. I bought it for $50,000 and I was selling it for $65,000. I started getting flooded with calls.
It’s like this is crazy. The first guy who called me was a realtor and I’m thinking, “Oh, no. Realtors involved.” He said, “Joe, I have somebody who wants to buy this.” I said, “I want to be open and honest and I got to tell you something. I don’t own the property. I just have it under contract and I have it under contract for $50,000.” He’s like, “It’s okay. Don’t worry about it.” He goes, “My buyer wants it and he’s going to pay cash. There won’t be any banks involved.” I said, “Are you sure?” He says, “Yeah.” I said, “I don’t have any title companies out in this area.” He said, “We’ll just use ours.” I said, “Can I have their number so I can call them?” I called the title company and I said, “I got this property. I don’t even own it yet. I have it under contract for $50,000 and this guy wants to buy it for $65,000. Is that okay?” The title company’s like, “Relax. Chill out. It’s okay.”
Throughout the whole process, after my closing costs and fees and stuff like that, I walked away with $12,500 or something like that and change. I could not believe it. I was so excited because I’ve seen all those gurus speak on stage at boot camps and events and showing checks on their slides. I was thinking, “That’s such a scam. There’s no way. That’s ridiculous.” Here, I just made $12,500 on a deal that I made every mistake possible. She was begging me to buy her house. I didn’t have comps. I didn’t have contracts. I didn’t understand what to do. I didn’t have a title company. I was so freaked out about is double closing illegal or assignments illegal? Can I wholesale a deal when there are realtors involved?
I was so determined I had to figure it out and I had to do it. That’s when I got excited about wholesaling. Later on, if you want, I can tell you about how I started doing lease options as well but I’m a big fan of wholesaling. It is active investing. I tell people all the time, you should use your wholesaling money, your profits to buy passive real estate investing properties. Because if you stop wholesaling, you stop making money. I tell wholesalers all the time you need to take the profits, save them up and start buying real long-term wealth building, cashflowing real estate because that’s how you build long-term wealth. Wholesaling, I don’t look down on it like I used to. It’s a wonderful way for people to get started. It is work. It’s not easy. Nothing’s easy in this business. I’ve been in this for a long time. I’ve coached thousands of people through my podcast and my books and stuff like that who are doing deals and are making great money. Hopefully, they’re wholesaling these deals to buy long-term cashflowing rentals.
I had all these thoughts going through my head as you were talking about this stuff. The first thing I want to say is, and this is no disrespect, but you sound like the accidental wholesaler. In fact, if you want a great idea for a book, you should call it The Accidental Wholesaler. Essentially, that’s what you described. You jumped in head first. You didn’t know how to do it. Wholesaling as you describe it and as we know it, you and I, it’s a fundamental building block because it’s the beginning of the food chain. You’re out there and you don’t need a lot of cash or capital necessarily. Sometimes you do. Maybe now you need more than you did in the past just because we’re in a seller’s market.
Wholesaling is that fundamental building block where you find that distressed seller or distressed property and you get it at a discount. There’s meat on the bone as you take a little bit yourself, then you sell it and pass it on. Here’s the key distinction. This is for the audience here. When you’re wholesaling, you never take title to the property. You technically don’t own and never own that property. What you have is a contract on that property and you’re selling the contract to someone else for a relatively small fee. It could be $2,000, $5,000, $10,000 but essentially, you’re selling the contract to someone else who’s going to now take that property, take title to that property and now fix it and keep it or fix it and flip it.
Let me clarify that too because in some states, it’s a little tricky to do that without a real estate license. I do have my real estate license. I recommend it to people all the time, you consider it seriously getting a real estate license. If you are wholesaling, sometimes you need to close on it and you can use transactional funding if you needed to. You close on it and then a minute later you sell it. You’re buying it for sale by owner and then you’re selling it for sale by owner. There is a lot of nuances and we can go into that another time if you want, but you’re right. Most of the time, I just assign my contract or I do a double close. Sometimes though I need to actually close on it with my own money or private investor’s money or transactional hard money and then turn around immediately sell it like that.
You explained it well. The double close is the lingo or the industry jargon for it where essentially, you’re buying and closing and reselling and closing on the same day. It happens in the same afternoon. For the audience, the beautiful thing about that is in most cases, you don’t have to record that deed in public records. You took title to it for five minutes, but it doesn’t necessarily show up in public records. That’s wholesaling. I think we beat that horse enough. Let’s escalate from there and go to flipping. Now, you’ve got this deal. I want to make a comment. The thing with something you said with wholesaling is you said that if you stop wholesaling and you stop your income stream, and I refer to that as you lose those chunks of cash.
When you put in the sweat equity to do a wholesale deal, you’re creating chunks of cash. Your advice is great advice. I say it all the time. If you’re going to create chunks of cash, turn it into streams of cash. In other words, reinvest it into buy and hold properties where you have cashflow coming in every month and you can create some real wealth for yourself. Those are the streams of cash that is in my opinion, your ultimate goal. That becomes the passive real estate investing of the spectrum even though you may have started as an accidental wholesaler with active real estate investing.
That’s good. That’s long-term thinking.
It is a strategy.
If you had zero debt, do you know how comfortable you can live on $100,000 a year, $8,000 or $9,000 a month? Really comfortable. How many properties do you need to get to that? If you just bought one property a month, maybe a couple or three properties a year, you could get there in ten to fifteen years. It’s so much easier to build a passive income with real estate than it is on any other type of business. That’s why I love this so much. It’s way easier than the stock market and it’s way easier than all the different types of life insurance and things like that. You could invest in real estate. There are so many advantages to it that you can’t get anywhere else.
For the sake of comparison and contrasting things, we started off with talking about wholesaling. That’s typically something where you have or need relatively minimal amounts of capital and relatively speaking, a minimal amount of knowledge. In fact, I hate to keep using your example, but you painted the example for that where you stumbled into wholesaling. Let’s compare that to flipping because with flipping, you’re going to need more capital. It’s more capital-intensive and it requires a lot more knowledge. Would you say flipping is the most common form of active real estate investing if you want to call it investing?
This is my opinion. When you say flipping, you’re talking about buying a house, fixing it up and then reselling it on the MLS.
You’re going to find a distressed asset, whether from a wholesaler or on your own. You’re going to get it somewhere, but then what do you do with it? A lot of people will say, “I’m going to fix it up and then keep it or fix it up and sell it.” That’s flipping. That’s what you see on HGTV and a lot of these other places.
I don’t like flipping at all. Remember what I was going to say earlier. When I’m advertising a wholesale deal, I’m marketing the contract, not the house. I wanted to clarify that. You’re marketing the contract, not the house. When it comes to flipping, I’ve rehabbed two houses and I lost money on both of them. I don’t like rehabbing at all and I have so many friends that have done rehabbing and quit and given up and gone to something else. When you’re rehabbing a house, it’s like adult daycare. There are so many problems that can happen. You’re managing contractors. You’re managing the expectations of realtors and buyers, inspectors and banks. There are so many different moving parts.
What I tell people all the time is in that three to six months that you’re fixing that property and then reselling it and making $30,000 to $40,000, even $50,000, that’s good. That’s awesome. During that time, you could have wholesaled five to six properties and made the same amount of profit or more with a lot less hassle, a lot less money at risk, not having to deal with picky buyers who are inspecting it and then dealing with inspectors, dealing with title companies, dealing with the city and dealing with realtors. Then all of the contractors, the funding, the cost of borrowing the money. It is for some people and I get it.
I know people that are doing well with rehabbing, but I know way more people that are done with rehabbing because it’s just so much easier to wholesale a property. My advice is there is money to be made in rehabbing or flipping but you better make sure you know what you’re doing and you better have access to cheap money. You can get wiped out with carrying costs if your property doesn’t sell in two or three months as you had budgeted for. I know people right now that they’ve gotten fat and happy and they were used to their properties selling quickly with multiple offers the first day it came on the market. Now, they’re sitting on three to four months and they’re freaking out because it wasn’t selling. It’s not selling as quickly as it used to. That’s my two cents.
I agree and I’ve been there myself. I’ve flipped a lot of properties. I’ve got stuck with many of them where I had to sell at a loss. It’s not fun. I say it’s a lot of brain damage. You use the term flipping and rehabbing or renovations interchangeably. Often, they are used interchangeably because if you’re going to flip a property, it’s implied that you’re flipping a property, not a contract.
I don’t want to dive deep into the technical details. When you’re wholesaling though if you don’t have a license, which I recommend getting one. If you don’t, you need to be careful. You need to have the means and the intent of actually buying that property. If you decide, “I don’t want to buy it,” then you’re selling the contract.
I’m glad you brought that up. It’s fine to bring up that level of detail because it’s easy to miss that stuff and you can get into trouble if you don’t follow through on that. You don’t like flipping property like renovating and flipping property. I get that but that’s the thing that TV has made look so juicy and sexy and it’s the rage. It’s like, “Let’s buy a property, fix it up and sell it or flip it.”
For us wholesalers, it’s great. The more people watch those shows, the better. The more I can sell my properties to them at a higher price. It’s very hard to do what those guys on TV are doing and what they don’t show you many times are all of the costs and the headaches involved and the long process. It’s always going to be twice as much as you think it was going to cost. It’s going to take you twice as long to sell it as you thought about how long it would take.
You can also make mistakes wholesaling. You could also buy incorrectly where you don’t have enough margin for the person who wants to buy it. Now, you have to lower your profit, your wholesaling fee or maybe take no fee or hopefully not take a loss on it.
The way I like to do it is I get a two to three-week inspection contingency. During that two or three weeks, I can find out pretty quickly whether it’s a good enough deal to wholesale or not. If it’s not, if my numbers are wrong, I can go back to the seller and either cancel the contract because I’m in the contingency window or renegotiate a lower price. If it comes to a point where I thought it was a good deal and I couldn’t sell it, then I’d better close on it. You can’t just walk away from a deal like that. I usually will know within the first two to three weeks whether I can wholesale that deal or not.
This is the end of part one of Active Real Estate Investing with Joe McCall. We went really long on this episode, so I decided to chop it into two 30-minute parts. Just head on over to part two to continue this interview and again hit that subscribe button if you haven’t done so already. I know that about one-third of our audience just read episode to episode. They don’t subscribe. If you have any questions about real estate investing, just go to PassiveRealEstateInvesting.com and hit the Ask Marco! button and if you have any questions, just send that over to me. Download our free report, the Ultimate Guide to Passive Real Estate Investing. It’s a great primer for you with no charge. Thanks for tuning in. We’ll see you in the next episode.
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