Hello, my friends. And welcome to another episode of Passive Real Estate Investing. I am your humble host, Marco Santarelli and welcome into the show. So what is it like to Retire Early with Real Estate? Well, that is what my guest and I are gonna talk about today. And he has authored a book called Retire Early with Real Estate, a really good book. It’s great, even if you’re a seasoned investor, but it’s good for everybody from newbie on up. And, you know, the whole concept of retirement is something that we think about and entertain and probably retirement means different things to different people. But regardless of what it means to you, I think at the end of the thought process there at the end goal is really time freedom that financial independence and financial freedom provides you or affords you. And so that’s the conversation I’m gonna have today with my asked Chad, who again, wrote the book Retire Early with Real Estate, and we’re gonna dive into some of the concepts that he talks about within the book.
So it was a great interview. I hope you enjoy it. And if you like the episode, if you like the podcast, of course, you know, by all means, leave a rating and review on iTunes or whatever platform you’re using. And with that, let us get straight to our interview.
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All right, well, it’s my pleasure to bring on one of my favorites, Chad Carson, to the show, Chad is an active real estate investor. He’s been investing for a long time. He’s an entrepreneur. He lives in Clemson, South Carolina, if I’m not mistaken and when he’s not investing, he’s out traveling and he’s with his wife and his two kids. He’s probably playing pickup bass at ball and he’s hiking, and he is learning something new. I mean, he seems to be a perpetual student, which I admire because I know Robert Kiyosaki that way. And I certainly am that way, but he also writes and teaches other people about investing in real estate. And he does a really good job about it. I’ve been listening to him and reading stuff on his blog for a number of years now on and off. And I think he does a fantastic job. So he’s focused on what he says, what matters the most. And I agree with him on that. He is also the author of a great book, which I happen to be holding in my hand here, Retire Early with Real Estate. Great read with that, Chad, welcome to the show.
Marco, thank you so much for having me as honor to be here on the show.
Well, it’s great to have you on, I think my audience are gonna resonate with everything you have to say. And I think we have a great topic today, which is essentially based around your book. So I’d like my audience to get a better feel for, you know, who you are and kind of how you got onto this real estate investing train. So why don’t you share with us anything you’d like to add to what I covered, but how did you get started and what was your WHY. Cause I think that’s a really big thing to focus on.
Sure. Well, the, the very beginning for me was a little unorthodox. A lot of people have a full-time job and then they get into real estate best thing on the side. And I was in college. I was a biology major and I was pretty sure I was gonna become a doctor. I was, I played football in college that paid for my school. I was lucky in that respect. And then I just enjoyed biology and science and thought that would be a fun career, but I was really tired because I’d been playing so much football and I said, I’m gonna take a break for a year or two. Maybe I’ll go study abroad or travel in Europe a little bit. And also just try out entrepreneurship just in the meantime. And so I started getting into real estate and I had my father had rental properties growing up.
So I had that kind of benefit as well. So I was just familiar with it and he had books on his shelf. So I was, you know, reading books on the weekends or when I was coming home. And so I was just, I had a little bit of an itch to try it out. And I got into the business of real estate of finding deals for other investors locally and Georgia, where I’m from. And, you know, long story short being in the business was just fun. I just enjoyed it. And I liked deal finding and I liked putting deals together. I liked just, it was all and the whole business was intriguing to me, but I think my why, the thing that really motivated me was I loved the flexibility of being an entrepreneur, even from the beginning of having to be able to make your own schedule, to be able to travel here and there, even when you’re hustling and doing the entrepreneur thing, I just, I fell in love with that freedom, that flexibility.
And so that, that was the after a year or two of doing that, I said, well, I think I’m just gonna keep doing this. And that was 20 years later. And I, I moved from the active business of flipping houses and buying deals like that to buying more rental properties. Eventually that’s kind of a, a bigger maybe four or five years into it started buying the long term hold rental properties. And right now I have a, a business partner and I, who I’ve been doing business with for the last 20 years. We have a portfolio of properties about 110 units, mainly in the Clemson South Carolina area, right where I live some to unit properties. Some single family house have a couple mobile homes as well, but the income from the rental properties is my that’s how I pay the bills these days. So that’s, that’s my main thing now.
Very cool. You know, you mentioned something about how you like entrepreneurship and the freedom it provides. And I think that’s just a perfect segue to one of the things that sticks out in my mind about your book. And you talk about four reasons so-called and I say in air quotes, early retirees should invest in real estate. I mean, the whole thing about being an early retiree is, is the flexibility and the freedom that it gives you, as you mentioned, which is, you know, why a lot of people wanna be entrepreneurs, but talk about those four reasons that, you know, so-called early retirees should invest in real estate.
Yeah. So you put me on the spot on one of my parts of the book that I should have studied from before, but it’s the reasons real estate in particular. And I think that’s the part that you’re talking about, like as, as a vehicle compared to some of the other vehicles, one of the challenges that a lot of people who find they’re trying to live off their wealth have is how do I turn these assets, this net worth into something that I could pay the bills with. And I, I think real estate is such a unique vehicle and that it produces income at a pretty good level. You know, if you compare, you go all the way down the risk spectrum and look at like bonds at, I don’t know, like I looked the other day, 1.9, 2% for 10 year treasury bond and dividends right now are 1.388, or I don’t know what they are.
They’re, they’re below two, 2%. And when you’re starting to look at the, you know, I’ve worked hard to build all this wealth over the years and now I wanna live off of it. It’s a real problem trying to turn that and time that correctly sell the assets correctly at the right time. Not right before down to her. And so I think real estate has this beautiful kind of combination of it is a great wealth building vehicle. You can use it to grow your wealth, but then when you need to live off of it. So if you’re an early retiree, like I was at 37 and I wanted to go travel to Europe, I mean to, to Europe, but also to, we lived in south America, my wi wife and I did with our two kids. And we stayed there for 17 months it, we had income coming in.
It wasn’t just wealth on paper. This was income that I could use to go buy empanadas and buy groceries and pay for rent. And that, that tangibility of it, of the income side of things is a, is I believe one of the things I emphasize there. And, and then the other is just the simplicity that, you know, there, there are a lot of cool tech businesses out there. Like I’m kind of a fan of just listening to podcasts and studying high tech. What’s next, what’s the next thing. And what are, what are what’s happening? But I don’t think I’m as confident about putting my money into those things, right? Dabble and crypto here and there, that, that kind of, but like I like real estate for it fits that rule that Warren Buffet talks about simple and understandable is something that we’ve all lived in houses.
We’ve all lived in apartments. We understand why somebody lives in a certain neighborhood, why somebody chooses to live in a certain part of the country. It’s intuitive that we don’t have to like go to school to figure out why people live in a certain neighborhood. It’s, it’s part of what we already do. And so it’s just one step up. It’s not like a whole new venture and a whole new learning thing to figure out how to buy real estate. It’s just, all right. Follow your intuition about what it means to be good quality real estate, add some analytics, which you do such a good job of and, and some numbers to that. And then, you know, get some good financing and learn how all that works. It’s just not a rocket science type right. You know, venture to do, and which, you know, we’re both educate. So we’re, you know, maybe like not, not propping ourselves up very much, cuz it’s not that it’s not as complicated as understanding how does this new cryptocurrency work or how does this high tech, you know, business? It’s a, it’s a really simple thing to understand that most of us can get our heads around and then also understand whether it’s a good deal or it’s not a good deal. And so I know those are couple of the reasons I, I wrote a lot about.
Yeah, no. I mean, that’s a big one being simple and easy to understand. I think that’s what attracts so many people to real estate as an investment aside from the fact that it is a good and true most historically proven wealth creator, but you know, control, I think is a big one, arguably control, you know, people want control their investments in and you’re investing in the equities market or the stock market. You’re not getting the control that you would have if it was your own company or if it’s a portfolio of real estate. So control, I think is a huge one.
That’s the one I forgot. Yeah. Like I found most real estate investors. I know at least the direct investors who own property directly and don’t put it in like this big passive fund. They are kind of control freaks in a good way. Right. You know, that entrepreneurs, we feel like we have this like delusion in some cases that we can control the world, you know, we can do things, but I think it is true that if you want to control your destiny in the investing world, we all kind of feel outta control. Sometimes, especially the last couple of years, you know, pandemics and these kind of things. There’s plenty of things we can’t control. So why not like be able to invest in something that we can choose the property? Yeah. We choose the property manager. We can choose what color we wanna paint the walls that we want to, like, if we want to get that detailed, we can.
And if you have the ability to influence your decisions and your investments, that’s a good feeling. Like I, I, I like that personally. And I think that’s the distinguishing mark between people who, who are gravitated to real estate and those who just wanna put money in an index fund and let it ride is the choice between how much you want to control and influence your destiny. Yeah. And how much you’re willing to just ride the market and go with it. That’s cool too. Like there’s some, there’s some benefit to that, but I, we, we, we like the benefits of control.
Yeah for sure. So, you know, I’ve always had a bit of an issue with the word retirement. I’ve never believed in retirement. To me, you know, one of the definitions of retirement is you just stop doing what you’re doing. Whether it’s a job you hate or love, but now you’re at an age where you supposedly can, you know, enjoy life, travel, do whatever you want. And so that’s the issue I’ve had with the word retirement. In fact, you know, I’ve always said that I’ll never cuz I’m gonna keep doing the things I enjoy doing, which for me is, you know, running businesses and entrepreneurship and investing. But you know, as I think about, you know, what you write, correct me if I’m wrong, but I think your definition of early retirement is financial independence. Is that true?
It’s true. Yeah. I’ve always had an issue with the retirement word as well, which is, it is on the name of my book, but it was kind of like, well the, this is what people understand it as I’ve gotta start there. Right?
Yeah, exactly. So how should investors define retirement? I mean, is that even the right word?
Yeah. I think let’s start with that idea. That retirement is the myth, at least is that one of these days you don’t have to work. Like don’t have to work now the issue that is just a money thing. So like divide your life into two worries. There’s the part of your life that has to pay for the rest of your life. That’s your work? That’s your investments. And like we, we try to get that in order and try to solve for that. But then you got this other part of your life with just what you do with your time. What, how you invest your most precious resource, your time, your energy. And I, I think retirement is just separating. Those two things is saying, all right, let’s solve the money part of it at least to an extent so that if you wanna keep working, you keep working, but you do it a hundred percent on your terms.
You don’t show up at a time if you don’t like, if you’re not an early bird in the morning, you don’t have to show up at seven 30. You can tell the boss, Hey look, I will work, but I’m gonna show up at [spp-timestamp time=”10:00″] AM. If, if that’s cool, that’s, that’s fine. I’m gonna just do something else. And when you have that walk away power, it’s like a negotiation and you can negotiate anything. Like my wife, when 2009, we weren’t completely financial independent, but she negotiated with her technical college job. She’s a professor who teaches Spanish and it was a big deal for her to ask off for four months or five. Yeah, we were gonna leave in August, come back in January. And she negotiated with her supervisor to say, I’d like to take four or five months off. I don’t, I’m not asking for money, but I’d like to have my job when I get back.
And that’s, that’s all I, and she was very nervous about that. But we had the money, we were prepared for them to say, Nope, you’re gonna lose your job. And what actually happened was they said, what? I thought you were gonna quit. Like, of course you can have your job back and do you want health insurance while you’re gone? Like you could, you have to pay for it, but you could keep your health insurance. So it was like, it was totally like that when you can, when you have the money to negotiate eight, anything’s possible, the hours you work, the flexibility you work, where you work, what type of work you’re doing. And I think that’s what retirement is. It’s not the, the new retirement, the new form of thinking. It’s kinda like the four hour work week that Tim Ferris wrote about back in, you know, 2005 and six.
It’s not to do nothing is to do the right thing and it’s to do it in the right way. And that’s, that’s, it’s, it’s been amazing. I’m I’m somebody who’s been living that for the last. It’s not perfect. It’s not, but I, I pinch myself when I wake up in the morning. Sometimes my wife pitches herself too. We’ve had a conversation about this today. We were saying this, this is amazing. We’re we’re doing contributions in our community. We’re able to be here. When our kids get off the bus, we’re able to walk with them to school. I’m still having professional pursuits that I I’m excited about. It’s it’s, it’s kind of, it’s more of a lifestyle design than it is a number, but you have to solve for the money first so that you can then ask yourself, what do I wanna be when I grow up? What do I wanna do with my life? And that’s something a lot of people don’t believe they can do until they kind of listen to our podcast. They get the idea that, wait a minute, like I could do this and it could happen in five or 10 years if I really hustle. Yep. That’s a pretty amazing, hopeful idea that I I’m excited about.
Yeah. And that’s one thing I really like about podcasts. It’s a great way to positively indoctrinate a group or an audience of people in not only what you believe, but what really works out there. But it’s also upon parents to quote unquote, indoctrinate their kids into, you know, proper financial education, which unfortunately, and sadly, a lot of parents just don’t have because they never got it. So, you know, it’s up to people like you and I, to help everybody else to, you know, to, to understand financial freedom and financial independence, which on that note, you know, I’ve always said that financial independence or financial freedom is really just a stepping stone to what people ultimately want. And that is time freedom. It’s not that we want the money for the sake of money. We want the money and the financial freedom to be able to do whatever we want when we want. So in other words, live life on our terms, just like what you do. You know, you have contributions, you pick up your kids from school, all that kind of stuff. You can’t do that unless you have at least financial independence on or complete financial freedom.
Time is the ultimate currency. I mentioned that earlier and there’s a quote. I’m gonna not be able to quote it. But, but Thoreau, I, I like reading like the transcendents in the United States Whitman and Thoreau. I think they had it right back in 1840 or something, whatever that was. But throw basically said, he always, he’s speaking to the most impoverished of people in the United States back then where people who had money and who had stuff, but they were stuck to their stuff. Like they were, they couldn’t get away from it. I forget. I think he used the word draws or you know, something like that. And I think that’s what a lot of us are trying to get out of is that we have a lot of stuff. Like our material wealth in the United States is incredible. Like we have fancy cars, we got nice houses.
We have nice watches. I mean, we got all these things, but we have very little free time. And when you travel a little bit, you start real. Like we went to Ecuador and which is, you know, from a monetary standpoint is not as wealthy of a kind, but I was impressed. Like the Latino culture for me is just what my wife and I immerse ourselves in. I learned so much about like wealth of time and friendship and generosity from people who, you know, quote didn’t have as much financial independence. And I, I think that’s what I’m speaking for myself to kind of lessons I had to learn as a, you know, go getter, monetary, you know, this get a lot of money time. You have to pursue hobbies the time you have to contribute. Like that’s ultimately when you’re on your deathbed, what are you gonna be thinking about? What are you gonna be grateful for? What are you gonna be regretting if you didn’t do, you know? And the it’s is exactly what you said. It’s not the, the money. Stuff’s fun. It’s a fun game. Don’t get me wrong. But the, the things you had time to do are what are gonna really matter the most, therefore, why don’t we build our whole lives around expanding our free time and our flexibility to spend it, how we see fit?
Yeah, I agree. I mean, I’ve heard it said, and I’ve said it before that time is the one thing that you really can’t make or create, but it’s the one thing you can spend and never get back. So, so you gotta, you gotta work towards that. So, you know, that segues to what you talk about as a financial independence number. So if you wanna have time freedom, you have to have your financial freedom or financial independence. Do you have a suggestion in calculating one’s financial independence number?
Yeah, I like to keep it pretty simple. Like I, I know, you know, just with rough numbers, I, because I, I think the big picture, if you’re, if you’re 10 years away from meeting your goal, it’s like, you’re looking at the top of a mountain and it’s kind of fuzzy up at the top of the mountain and you don’t need to know exactly where that is. You just need to go towards the mountain. Right. And so I think that’s what I use, like big picture goals for. And so a financial independence number is just something to aim at. Here’s how I explain it in my book is that start with the amount of money you spend right now in your life. And I actually did a survey when I wrote the book where I inter interviewed. I think I did a survey with over a thousand people.
These were people in my audience and the bigger pockets audience, and I asked them how much money do you need to cover all of your expenses and have a cushion like to know your you’re good. And I was really surprised. I don’t, you might have read that part of the book Marco, but I’m just people listening to this. Ask yourself the question. What do you think the most common answer was like how much money per year? This was back in 2017, 18. When I was writing the book, would it take and ask yourself that question? The median number that I got in that book was like 60 to 75,000 was the number for most people. And I know that’s across the country, you know, living in San Francisco, New York versus living in South Carolina, it’s a whole a
nother deal, but the point was, there’s a number like you could put a number on that and you could be pretty rough about it.
And you know, if it’s, if it’s 80,000 bucks and you wanna round up to a hundred, or just to say, you have a good cushion, like do it, but pick a number and then you work it backwards and say, how much wealth would I have to have such that the income from that wealth or the, the interest or the rent or whatever you’re gonna, how you’re gonna make your money can pay for your overhead and your in your life. That’s what the financial independence number is. It’s both the, the annual number, that number that you’re looking for to cover. And also you can then work the next step and say, well, how much wealth would I have to have? And you could do some really simple math with that. Like people in the financial independence movement who are using stocks and index funds often use something called the 4% rule where they kind of, they work it backwards.
And then the reverse of the 4% rule is 25 times your annual earnings. So your annual expenses. So if you needed a hundred thousand a year, you would multiply a hundred thousand times 25 and that’s 200, 2.5 million. So, so you can do something similar with real estate. I use a 6% just real rough number. And I I’ll be curious, Marcus, cuz you look at all sorts of markets all over the country. But for me I’m pretty comfort that I could find a high quality property in the right market and pay cash for it and make a 6% unleveraged yield, pretty comfortable that I could do that. Is that, do you think, what have you seen? I know the interest rates are really low cap rates are compressed. Are you seeing, is that possible out there? Do you wanna do that?
Well, yeah, of course. I mean, it really is gonna come down to the market, some market and most importantly, the neighborhood, but you can get cap rates from as low as 4% to cap rates as high as 8% or more. The question is, you know, and this is a whole new conversation, but you know how much quote unquote risk you want to take is sure you can increase your cap rate by going into less desirable neighborhoods. But do you really want to go? There is that part of your buy box and for are a lot of people it’s not. So this is a deeper conversation obviously, and I know we’re going off on a tangent, but yes you can. The short answer to your question.
Well, I mean, that’s helpful cause I just, I wanna validate the idea cuz this, this is a retirement concept, but the point is now let’s come back to the formula. If your number’s a hundred thousand bucks and you want to have, and you’re gonna use six per percent instead, we’re gonna have to do our reverse math there instead of 2.5 million, maybe that’s more like a million and a half do math, right. But you know, so you can have a smaller net worth and buy quality real estate and be very conservatively financed and still hit your financial independence number. And that’s again, one of the big benefits of real estate. That’s an amazing kind because that means people are gonna retire earlier. They can retire with more confidence. And that’s really what it’s all about. Like you’re choosing real estate because again, the reasons we said earlier is tangible. It’s understandable, but it’s also an amazing retirement vehicle that can help you achieve your financial independence number in a pretty simple way with not really complicated math, it can help you get there.
Yeah. And I was gonna ask you the question of how many properties, I mean, as a formula, how many properties would one need to achieve whatever their financial independence number is? You’ve more or less answered that question. But the other thing that I would like to point out about that in terms of what you said is you could make that calculation today saying I need X number of properties to achieve my financial independence number. But if you’re not looking at the future revenue or income from those properties, you are going to overestimate how many properties you need because as time goes on and we’ve seen this as, especially over the last two years, how much rents have increased year over year, you have to understand that as the years go by on average, you’re gonna raise your rental income, your rental rates. And so that increases your cash flow. So, you know, that means that you will achieve your financial independence numbers sooner. If you’re not factoring in the fact that your rents are gonna increase, your cash flows will increase. So it may not, it be as many properties as you think you need in order to achieve those numbers. Am I missing something there?
Oh yeah, you’re right. You’re hit the nail in the head. I mean, inflation is the topic of the day, right? People are talking about inflation a lot and that’s something we hadn’t even mentioned as a benefit of real estate, but you can do a real simple map. You can say, okay, 10 properties that produce, you know, $10,000 a year and net rent, that’s a hundred thousand bucks. Like you can work it backwards that way, but then you can also, the future is always the question mark, what about 20 years from now? And if you can pay attention to the tactics of real estate today by the right neighborhood, the right location with the right economics, with the right numbers, the right type of property. So you do all the homework on the front end, the likelihood you’re increasing in the likelihood that rent you’re getting today, it’s gonna pay for as much or more 20 years from now as it is today because a real estate at a minimum.
I mean just if you’re in a good location, tends to keep up with inflation. There’s no guarantee to that, right. But it’s, you got a better chance of it keeping up inflation than you do, putting your money in a bond or a savings account. That’s for sure. So as assets go, it’s not only the wealth building vehicle, not only the get out my job or have financial independence vehicle, but it’s also a really good inflation hedge over the long run to make sure you have enough money 20 years from now, or maybe more like, that’s your point? Like if you’re buying the right location that increases in value and rent more than inflation, then you’re gonna probably be better off in the end.
Well, I think you don’t have a choice. You have to put yourself in a position where you are at minimum, keeping up with inflation, if not beating inflation, cuz if you’re not, you’re a loser and not, I don’t mean that in a negative sense, but you’re losing purchasing power from, you know, whatever cash you have or savings you have or fixed income investments that you have. So if you position yourself, well, you’re gonna become poorer every year. Just because of the stealth tax called inflation.
This is where the the technology does come in. We’re starting to live longer, right? How confident are we that 20 years from now? Our medical technology allows us to live instead of 80 years, you know, on average, maybe we’re 90, maybe we’re 95. So yeah, good point. This is a real issue. If you know, this is a first world problem, right? But this is, this is a real issue that you, you need to make sure you have the right assets to not just be 20 years from now or 30 years from now, but maybe 50, 60, 70 years from now, how are you gonna still be generating wealth at that point?
You know what you just said? Probably scared a few people, you know, when people stop to think about it in those terms that, oh, I’m gonna live longer. So I need more money and I need it to last or outlast me, you know, that becomes a scary thought for a lot of people. Yeah. You gotta plan it.
Also points into real estate. Again, like I, you know, I have friends who do the whole draw down my portfolio and, and index funds and I’m like that that’s cool. Like let’s have that conversation, but I can’t imagine drawing down my wealth until, and just trying to time it until the day I die. Like that, that math is, I don’t care how fancy your retirement calculator gets. I don’t, I, I want this huge cushion between me and me running out of it. You know, I, I don’t wanna think about it. I don’t wanna think about my money. I just wanna have the assets. And that’s, you know, we’re kind of beating a dead horse here with the, why is this people listening to this are probably sold on the fact, but you’re, you’re making a good decision by at least putting some of your assets.
You don’t have to be all in real estate. You can be diversified. I might be getting ahead of myself with your questions. But I think having like a foundation of real estate in your retirement portfolio is just that no-brainer, if you’re willing to do it because it gives you that foundation, that everything else can be built on, you can still have those add on those other layers of assets and other layers of index funds and things, which I also buy. But it’s, it’s the thing that kind of gets you the confidence and the, the financial oxygen to be able to do all the other stuff
A hundred percent agree. And I also like to think of real estate as having your cake and eating it too, because it’s an asset that you can literally keep forever and it will continue to pay you forever. And even if you’re not here or you’re not around, you can pass it on to your kids, your heirs, whatever, you know, so you never have to get rid of it. There’s no withdraw or draw down to zero. You can draw down in the sense that you’ll always have that passive income and retain the asset. That’s giving it to you. So it’s, it’s like the the goose that lays the golden egg, you could always have the goose and it’ll continue laying golden eggs.
Yeah. The golden eggs of income. You can also refinance it at some point, if you pay your properties off, you can borrow money tax free. That’s an idea you could sell it. You could donate it to charity, have a friends who’ve done that before, you know, or you wanna, instead of me, you know, giving a little bit here and there I’d give one house to a charity and I get the deduction on that and they get the property and they can sell it. So, I mean, there’s so many by that having that tangible asset, you’re very flexible in how you, what you can do with it.
So on the topic of wealth, I’ll just kind of, you know, we’ll shift gears after this, but on the topic of wealth, you refer to five stages of wealth in your book, which I love, I, I never really thought about it in those terms. Maybe you could talk a little bit about it. And what I’m curious to ask you about those five stages of wealth is do we all go through those or do we leapfrog some of those? So maybe talk about what they are and if we all kind of go through those or not.
Yeah. The wealth stages, it was really helpful for me when I was going through it to think about the wealth building, like a mountain climb. And so that’s the metaphor I use in the book and have pictures of it. But imagine that like you’re in financial goal is at the top of the mountain and you’re trying to get up there. But most of us, I’m not, I’m saying most book, most of us start at the bottom or even like we started a crater or the grand canyon at the bottom, like negative, like a lot of us, you know, unless you got a trust fund and you just had all this money fall on your lap. In which case you had enough wealth to start halfway at the mountain or all the way up the mountain. Most of us start at the bottom. We’ve gotta build our way up.
We might have student debt. We might have, you know, other kinds of debt. And so we’re at the bottom of the mountain. I call that your kind of survival stage. And the, the reason I have these different stages I’m gonna go over is because I, I, when I was helping people start investing in real estate, I found a lot of them were struggling. Cuz they had all these tactics, they had all these great ways to buy properties and finance properties and analyze markets. But they were a little overwhelmed with saying, but how does that apply to me? Like I like, I’m not sure how I’m supposed to do that. And the framework of the wealth stages says that somebody who’s just starting and who’s in a lot of student debt is in a different approach to real estate. As somebody who has 2 million who just exited their, you know, business.
And they now just need to diversify into real estate like that. Those are two totally different strategy approaches to real estate. And so if you’re in the survival stage, like you just need to get financial oxygen. Like you need to get a reserve fund, you need to work on your income. You need to pay your debts off. Like, and there’s nothing wrong with that. Like everybody’s been there in some form or fashion. So don’t be ashamed of that. Don’t be, you know, thinking that somebody who has $2 million is better than you. Like, we’ve all been there. Like that’s, that’s fine. But just know that you, you’re probably not gonna be in thing when you’re in survival stage, you’re you, if you’re gonna get into real estate, you need to maybe if you really like real estate, get into the professional agency side of real estate or be a flipper, or if you like construction, get in the construction business, you know, turn your real estate love into a career, not into an investment yet because you don’t have enough money to do that yet.
And the same with when you move one stage up, you’re in the more stability phase and maybe you do have a reserve fund. Maybe your job is pretty stable, but that’s the stage you can start thinking about maybe like house hacking or something like you gotta live somewhere. Why not think about turning your residents into a, a future investment, like live in a duplex or live in a house with a Airbnb apartment. Don’t just go buy the quote, an American dream of just the biggest house you can buy and just whatever, like buy a property that can turn into an investment that either can rent out now. Or you can flip down the road, do like a live in flip where you can make tax free gain on it. That’s the stage where you’re, you have to kinda kill two blurs of one stone. You gotta live somewhere, but you also wanna get it started investing, but you don’t have a lot of capital.
So you gotta find, and those low money down, FHA loans, owner, occupant loans, that’s the ingredients. How so many of us have gotten started is by at that stage. So then you move into like the saver stage, which is kind of again, house hacking. Like you have a good job, you’ve got stability, but your goal now is to save as much money as you can because that saving money is the engine to building wealth. There’s no getting around it. There’s no shortcuts. Someday. You might start with low money down, but you’ve gotta save money. Like you’ve gotta turn zero net worth into a million dollars in net worth. You’ve gotta get there and you can’t just invest your, your way to it. You’ve gotta save money. And so that’s what the third stage is and house hacking. And some of those other kind of early on like BRRRR strategy where you, you know, leverage that small nest egg you already have and try to turn it into something more that’s the saver stage and the, the next stage called a wealth building stage.
And again, just strategy, which strategy should you do. You’re probably more focused on those at that point. And then stage five is the income you’re getting close to the peak of the mountain. That’s more the income or the withdrawal stage of your career. And I found myself in that stage, the last three or four years. And it’s been interesting because my strategy has shifted where we’re paying debt off. Like we’re not trying to leverage to the hill. We are, I, I that’s sacreligious in a lot of, you know, a lot of cases like to say we’re paying debt off. But you know, we paid our house off even though a 3% loan on our principal residents. We’ve paid off some, not all, but we paid off some of our real estate investing debt because when you get to the top, you have enough wealth or at least you have a big chunk of wealth.
The goal now is to not go back down. The mountain is the goal is not to lose and not to have the next downturn, you know, make you slide back down. And so I’m not into, I’m not into going back down at the beginning. I wanna, you know, take some chips off the table. I wanna stabilize my portfolio. I’m diversifying a little bit. I’m very concentrated in Clemson, South Carolina. That’s a risk that university goes outta business. I don’t think they will anytime soon, but I wanna invest in other markets. I wanna invest in other asset class. And so it’s just a different approach in that stage than it would’ve been when I was in the survival stage.
Great overview. So I would imagine that the majority of the people that listen to my podcast here I’d say 80% of them. And, and maybe this is true for you too, are in that third and fourth stage of wealth, which is the saver and growth stage. And the reason I say that is because they’re certainly interested in real estate, they’re working towards it or they’re already doing it. So they’re either working to save to get their first or their next property, or they’re already building a portfolio and looking to grow their portfolio as fast as they can. So they want that portfolio growth and the equity growth. I would imagine that 80% of our audience is savers and growth. I guess the comment I’m gonna make on that is that I think a lot of people get bogged down or stuck is in the saver stage of wealth creation because they can’t seem to find enough investment capital to deploy fast enough. And that’s where, you know, the house hacking and comes in or fixing and flipping to create chunks of cash or what I call side hustles, you know, just creating a side business or doing extra things to create extra income. So you can save more that way you have investible capital to invest more and that gets you to the growth stage and then ultimately the withdrawal stage faster. So I think people stay stuck if you will, in the saver stage the most. I dunno if you agree with me on that.
A hundred percent. Yeah. I think the most, one of the more common questions I get is I bought one property or two properties, but now I don’t have any money. Right. What do I do now? And so, yes. And, and you know, the interesting for, everybody’s probably heard this story about compounding and how powerful that is. Like if you take $10,000 today and fast forward it, 60 years from now and grow it, it’s gonna be huge. It’s gonna grow in because it’s gonna have time to compound and grow and grow and grow. And that speaks though to how important the saver stage is every thousand dollars, every $5,000 that you can scrounge together during that 5 to 10 year period of your Sabre wealth, early wealth BI stage is so critical. And that that’s where like the whole idea of frugality and living below your means makes the biggest difference.
I mean, I, I tend to think it’s like philosophically, I just kind of enjoy, you know, camping and just not having to deal with a bunch of stuff anyway, but you don’t have to do that your whole life, if you don’t want to, you can accumulate more and do more. And like 15 years into your wealth building career spending 50,000 bucks on a luxury or a nice car is not a big deal compared to spending 50,000 on a luxury car. The very beginning, like that’s almost a cent, you know, like you, if you do that in your very beginning, you are wasting not 50,000 bucks. You thing like a half, a million dollars, 30 years from now or 40 years from now. And that’s the idea you gotta get in your head as a saver. Is that not only there’s a logical side of how to do it, but there’s a why I should do it.
And how, and like just the want to, I think that’s an obstacle. A lot of people get into is like, I wanna enjoy my life. Like, and I do too. Like, I’m not saying you have to deprive your yourself, but if you can be at least conscious of every time you spend some money, every time you buy a car or buy up a little bit on your house, that doesn’t make you a return. You just need to be aware that you’re sacrificing not 50,000, not 10,000, you’re sacrificing a lot more and ask yourself, is that worth the trade off that that’s, you only, you can answer that at, but that’s a, that’s a big deal,
Huge point. And you know what they call that they call that opportunity costs. Yeah, because at 15 or $50,000 you spend today could be worth $250,000, 10 years from now. And that’s the loss. It’s not the 15 or 50,000. It’s the 250,000 you could have made with that 15 or $50,000. So one quick question, you don’t need to spend a lot of time on this, for those people who are listening to this that are, you know, getting started, they’re new they’re newbies. What would you recommend? And I know I could ask 10 different people, this question, and get a slightly different answer, but what would be the best way to get started investing in real estate? If you are just getting started or new, or just thinking about it.
This is gonna depend on your market. I know high price markets have a interesting challenge, but I think turning your residents into an investment is the easiest way to get started. And I’ll give you just really quickly a couple options. One I mentioned earlier, house hacking, if you can live in a duplex or a triplex or a fourplex or, or commonly live in a house with an ADU accessory dwelling unit that that’s such a way to is not only the financing’s easier, the down, payment’s easier. You can cut your teeth and learn how to be a landlord without like owning a bunch of properties. That’s an idea. Another idea that my wife and I did after house hacking, which just move into a house, buy a more reasonable house that could eventually be a rental after you move out. And you get the financing.
You’re not renting the house while you live there, but 3, 4, 5 years later, or whenever you keep the house instead of selling it, and then you can do that three or four times. And that might be all you need to do. And even in high cost living areas, you know, maybe that wouldn’t be a great rental property when you moved into it, but give it five years and the rents have gone up and your mortgage is still the same. That could be an excellent investment. I have a friend who has a house, a duplex in Berkeley that has just become an amazing investment for him and his wife, but it started off as just the place they lived in. And that’s my recommendation for most people, of course are certain locations that might not make sense. But if you can pull that off, do one or two deals like that, you’ll learn so much. The financing’s pretty approachable.
Yeah. And that for a lot of people is their strategy. You know, they don’t have another way to invest in real estate. So they just stay in their property for as long as they can. And then when they have saved up enough, they’ll move or move up to an other residence, but to keep the old one rented out, why not? I mean, if you’re in a good market and prices are appreciating, why would you wanna let it go? If you can keep it.
If you could keep it.
Kind of one, one of the parts of your book, that’s kind of meat potatoes. And I think it’s is one of the overall themes for this episode is wealth building because wealth building equates to retiring, you know, as you titled your book, one of the parts of your book talks about the rental debt snowball plan. And I know you kind of broke it down into a couple different areas of what, you know, the snowball plan is. I don’t wanna steal any of your thunder. I’ll let you just talk about it. However you want to talk about it. We can just, you know, go as deep as you want.
Yeah. It’s one of those ideas that people use in personal finance. Like you might have heard Dave Ramsey talk about this. If you listened to him or some of the other personal finance people, you, when, when you have a lot of credit card debt or other debt, the idea of just being very deliberate about how you pay that debt off and just attack it and pay it off really quickly, that one of the ways to do that debt snowball is you. You could just make a list of all your debts and start with the smallest amount of debt. If you had a thousand dollars credit card debt, then a $10,000 card debt, and then a $50,000, some other kind of debt, you would pay off the smallest one first, but you would not pay, you would just make the minimum payment on the other ones and then attack it.
And now you’ve paid off the first one and now you’ve freed up the cash flow and that one to pay the second one, the third one. And so on. It’s just, the snowball is in, is in amazing kind of motivational experience. And that’s the reason Dave Ramsey recommends it. And I, I would just, I just took that idea and said, and I’ve borrowed from other people too. Let’s do that in rental properties at some point. Like, so you, you can look at your whole rental property, mountain climb, and a couple stages. You have this growth stage where every penny you can save is going into the next property. Every penny down payments, reserves, whatever, and you’re using leverage. And you’re just making sure you acquire those properties in the right location. That’s the growth stage some point, but I’ve always heard people talk about that.
I very rarely heard of people talk about, well, once you have the growth, like what now? Like, what do you do? You just keep on growing forever? Like, that’s the normal answer? Well, you just keep on borrowing more and you keep going and going and go going. And I find more comfort in going into the second stage and saying, let’s like, it’s like we’re playing poker. We would wanna take some of our winnings off the table. And that’s what paying some of your debt off is. And so this strategy of a debt snowball is just to say, instead of me getting a bunch of 15 year loans on five properties, why don’t I get 30 year loans on every for all those properties and then any extra cash I get from those properties, plus any extra savings I can get. I attack one of those properties debts.
And instead of taking 30 years, you could pay that property often five years, six years, because you’re making this huge mortgage payment. Well, what I actually did from a practical standpoint, I didn’t do it monthly, my business partner, and I would save up money for like six months or 12 months. And then we would just throw a big check at the bank and just send them 50 grand or send ’em a hundred grand and do it that way. And I just found that was more psychologically comfort for us just in case we had a big issue in the meantime, or just in case we had a big opportunity. We had that a hundred thousand bucks sitting there, but our plan was to use that, to pay off the debt. And the, the cool thing about it is that you pay a hundred thousand dollars. You pay that debt off.
Now you had a five or $600 payment that now goes onto your snowball. And now the next property, instead of taking a certain amount of time, takes a little bit shorter, and then you pay off the second one and the third one. And so we’ve been doing that probably, I don’t know, five years or so on some of our properties, we’ve sort of hit a weird point now where we’re like, I don’t know that we wanna pay a whole lot more off. We’re, we’re, we’re pretty comfortable where we are, where the, a lot lower loan to value overall on our portfolio than we used to the debt we do have is with pretty friendly lenders. We have one bank loan and a bunch of private lenders who are mainly us like my business partner, his other business loan to some money. And we have a couple family members who are, we’re helping their retirement by paying them some interest. So like, we’re not really interested in paying off anymore, but we find ourselves in a position where if we do have a downturn or we do have something that happens, we’re not in as risky positions, we were in 2007, eight and nine. We’re in a pretty good place where we could ride out a de a deflationary cycle. We could ride out an inflationary cycle. We’re in a much more stable place at this point.
So the debt snowball plan that you talk about is very powerful. And a lot of people don’t understand why it’s so powerful, but what you need to understand is that your typical mortgage loans like a 30 year fixed rate, even a 15 year it’s, the interest is stacked on the front end. So the early payments are predominantly interest and you pay little principle, but as time goes on, you pay more and more and more principle. That’s why it takes forever to pay it off. But you kind of flip that model on its head. You, you flip the formula, it head when you’re actually making principle payments up front, like you do with the debt snowball plan, you accelerate the payoff of that loan. So instead of 30, you can quickly chop it down to 27, 25, 20 15. And I know a lot of people will pay a 30 year mortgage off in like seven years.
So it’s pretty powerful when you can get to that point of, you know, free and clear. But let me ask you this. I think there’s different opinions on this. I see the benefit of, and the comfort in paying off your mortgages early, especially, you know, one after another, after another of your properties, but what does that look like in light of the fact that we are in an inflationary environment have been for a long time will continue to be in an inflationary environment and you’re borrowing capital for your mortgage loans at such a low rate of interest, like historically low. I would think there’s an argument to be made that it’s maybe not a good idea to pay off for your mortgages quickly because it inflation’s eating away your fixed rate debt, right. And it’s already at historically low cheap rates of interest. Do you have any thoughts or comments on that? I know this is a lot to throw at you, but.
No, no, it’s, it’s a legitimate question and it really is. The crux of the debate is this seems like in what, some ways, the worst time to pay off debt, but here’s the way I’m I looked at it cause I’m a spreadsheet guy and I love numbers and I get that argument completely. And it was an argument I made to my wife for like five years before we finally paid our house off and she won and I’m, I’m happy. We, she won because I think it was a good decision. I have two hats I put on, I have my optimizer make the most money in my life, build wealth. This hat I have on is like, I want to grow my wealth as much as possible. And part of that growth is I wanna outpace inflation. Inflation’s a concern, it’s a legitimate risk. Right? So one of the ways to attack inflation is to outgrow it, you know, and that’s, it’s harder when you have 7% inflation than it is when it’s two or 3%.
So that’s a legitimate concern. The other hat I have on though is the enough hat and the, the point where I’ve I’ve got enough and yes, I’m, I’m not gonna finish growing. Like I’m still wanna grow my portfolio, but like optimizing my growth and getting the maximum growth is not my number one criteria. My number one criteria back to the beginning conversation is the most time, the most flexibility, the most freedom, and also the most risk mitigation. And so I, I think something we’ve kind of got lulled to sleep a little bit on, is that inflation’s right in our face. It probably is the most legitimate risk that we have. Right. But I still remember my grandmother telling stories about the great depression and about uncle Ralph or whoever it was, you know, had the $10,000 mortgage on his house. Or, and then properties went down by 80% and then he was upside down, even though he had a 50% mortgage, he was upside down on his mortgage because of deflationary issues as well.
And so I’m not saying we’re gonna have another great depression. All I’m saying is once you have enough in your portfolio, there probably need to be like two or three kind of, or, or more risk conversations going on. And I, I feel comfortable like this is one reason I haven’t paid off all of our debt. Like we, the inflation issue is a concern. We should lock in some low interest debt, especially if it’s non-recourse or I really don’t have to worry about it that much. There’s just not a lot of risk of that debt. But at the same time, I lived through and invested through 2000 7, 8, 9, which I know you did too. And the only way I saw people go outta business was not being able to make their mortgage payments. That was the only way, like, I, I know people are worried about getting sued into oblivion and all that, and I’m sure that theres people got outta business being sued.
I personally know people who’ve gone out of business because their cashflow was not enough to cover their mortgage payments or they had a balloon note come due, or, you know, Dave Ramsey’s story. He had a bunch of balloon notes come due during a, a banking crisis. And I think that’s the thing we gotta remember. It might go in 50 year cycles. It might go in hundred year cycles, but that’s kind of where my head is. Like from a financial standpoint, I wanna, once you’ve got a pretty big portfolio, let’s start diversifying our risk mitigation and having some free and clear real estate. And kinda quarantining that off by itself is probably to me the best risk mitigation between inflation inflation. You have inflation hedge because you’re probably is, are still gonna go up and value. Your rents are still gonna go up. If I have a, a free and clear property that produces a 7% yield from the rent and a three or 4% yield from their appreciation, I’m still making a 10 or 11% return on my capital. That’s a really good return. I’m not making 20% because I had leverage on it. Right. But I’m still making a good return, but I’m also mitigating the risk that if that rent that is at 1500 bucks now goes down to 750 bucks in a crazy weird world. I’m not saying that’s gonna happen, but I would still be able to survive because I could lower my rents. Whereas everybody else who had leverage would be outta business, right. Their banks would take their property back.
Yep. All valid points. Very good argument that just emphasizes, you know, to your last point, the importance of having positive cash flow or at worst case scenario break, even because you can weather through a few years of downturn, if the property pays for itself, if it carries itself. And that’s why, you know, positive cash flow is so critically important. Yeah. Absolutely said, so let me just skip forward. Cause I know in you talk a lot about, you know, different buy and hold plans and which ones are, you know, the best for you. And then ultimately, you know, as part of the growth strategy, you have a trade up plan and this doesn’t apply to everybody, but you trade up your properties. In other words, leverage the equity that you have to increase the size of your portfolio. And a lot of people do a 1031 exchange for that.
We talk a lot about that on the show. So I just wanna skip forward and kind of start to wrap things up here with what I’ll refer to as withdrawal strategies. You refer to this using the term withdrawal often. I call it income on autopilot, but what would be a primary strategy after you’ve gotten a portfolio built up to start withdrawing, you know, from those portfolios or generating passive income on a monthly and annual basis. In other words, where do you shift the gear to put it into neutral? So you can start to live life very comfortably.
Yeah. I love this question again, just cuz when I wrote the book, I didn’t find a lot of people were talking about it. I know you do a good job of that and focus on it. But I think that the growth is a lot of people know how to grow their wealth and that’s the first thing they figure out. But how do you turn this wealth into an income generator for life? That’s really what this question comes down to. And one concept I love and all of these are borrowed concepts by the way, creating, turning your portfolio or at least part of your portfolio into an income floor. So how a focus on income first? Now there there’s an argument early in your career to kind of ignore. I, I think cashflow is important. I like to focus on more cash centric plus growth, but you could make an argument how it’s all about growth early in your career.
Don’t worry so much about cash flow, but when you get to the point where you’re gonna live off of it, cash flow is critically important. And so at this point, an income floor means take a chunk of your equity and turn that into a kind of income maximizer, something that can generate that passive income. And what we just talked about with the debt snowball is one reason you might do that. You might sacrifice some of the larger growth on that portion of your portfolio, but you’re paying off debt. That’s gonna increase your cash flow. It’s gonna reduce your risk kinda long run. So for example, one example of an income floor might be to have five free and clear rental properties or 10 free and clear rental properties. You can go back to that financial independence number we started with that might be kind of the bare bones of what you need to pay for all of your living expenses.
As a family, maybe your income floor gets you 50,000 bucks a year or 70,000 bucks per year. And that’s the priority at that point. Even if it sacrifices growth a little bit, I think that buying the properties and having the debt structure such that you can consistently and safely and comfortably generate income. That’s the name of the game at that point, cuz then you can do whatever you want. You have that you don’t, if you wanna work great. If you don’t want, if you just wanna take a break, my wife and I have taken many retirements, which is kind of one of our favorite things to do instead of retiring permanently, we take time off. We went 17 months to Ecuador with our kids when they were three and five years old this next year, starting in July, 2022, we’re planning to go to Spain and we’re gonna spend, you know, about a year probably and kind of open ended there.
We’re gonna live somewhere in Spain and our kids are gonna go to school there. And so income is what does that it’s like, that’s gonna pay our rent. And so this whole point of having an income floor is optimizing a real estate portfolio for that goal. And then any extra wealth you have above and beyond that, that it might have a different job. It might have a different purpose. It might be, this is my inflation hedge money. I’m gonna put this 401k money, which I also, my wife and I have, you know, retirement accounts too. That’s more of our kind of long term growth money just in case we lived 120, that kind of thing, you know? And so that money is actually for us as an index funds and other diversification as well, but real estate provides that income floor for us.
Yeah. Great answer. Very comforting listening to you. Describe it that way. You know, having an income floor it’s it’s almost sounds like a safety net. So very well put, let’s wrap up with this one last thing here. I’m good friends with Kyle Wilson, Jim Rohn’s business partner, you know, the late great Jim Rohn, who’s just an amazing individual. In fact, I’ll see Kyle this Friday, you know, Jim said that we must all suffer from one of two things, you know, the pain of discipline or the pain of regret. And you know, this kind of is described in your last section of the book, you know, the sting of regret and the joy of freedom. Can you maybe talk a little bit about that as kind of a closing point here.
Yeah, I love the wrapping it up with some philosophy. This is the kind of stuff I read on my bedside, a little stoic philosophy. But ultimately, you know, this is all a game we play between the time we’re born and the time we die, you know, and a lot of stoic philosophers like Marcus Aurelius would ask the question they recommend like seems kind of Marose, but like ask yourself the question. If I died today, what would I have regretted not doing? And, and it really brings the light, like the things that are important to you by thinking about the fact that you’re mortal we’re gonna die. And so a phrase that a lot of Romans would use that a memento mori, like, remember you’re going to die because not because, you know, you wanna be morbid about it, but because that’s how you realize the things you would regret not doing now, it kind of brings things to some urgency to what you’re doing. And I think this kind is infused in this whole conversation today about priorities.
And what’s important to you. What matters to you all the way down to what kind of business strategy you use? Like I, my business partner and I we’ve stumbled through most of these lessons ourselves by, you know, touching the fire and getting burned and for us like growing and growing, growing and build the biggest business empire ever as fun as that is like, I love entrepreneurship. We kind of touch that fire a little bit and realize, you know, what, what we really wanna do is go hiking in the middle of the day. My wife and I travel, we want to play basketball. Like, so I think ask yourself the question I’m thinking about what would you regret if you know you’re on your deathbed and you look back and say I was 42 years old or I was 60 years old. I wish I would’ve done that.
And then build your entire business around helping you kind of move in that direction, real estate and your business serves you and your life as opposed to the other way around. Sometimes the business becomes the monster becomes the Frankenstein and it has its own life. And I think that really what we’re talking about here is just have fun with the tool called real estate investing, but keep it the tool, keep it the thing it’s the serving life is helping you have time. It’s helping you have freedom. And this is one of the best vehicles to do that. Like we’re kind of preaching to the choir, but this is an amazing fun vehicle that can serve you. The rest of your life can keep you intellectually stimulated for the rest of your life. It can serve you financially. It can teach other people, which is a big part of our, our service.
Now. Like I want other people to be able to do this. I want my kids to pay attention to this and hopefully whether they do real estate or not learn about it, those are the things I, you know, when I think about my end, like you, that’s the kind of legacy that’s kind of fun to leave. Like nobody’s gonna remember my name, you know, a hundred years from now, but hopefully they’re better off and their kids are better off and their kids are better off. That’s the kind of thing that we hopefully at our best can do.
Yeah. Well, you know, you know, they’ll probably remember your name. You’ve got a great book. You’ve got other, you know, all kinds of other content out there. So anyway Chad, this has been amazing. I really enjoyed our conversation. We could literally talk for hours, so I appreciate you coming on. Why don’t you share with our listen? You know, how can they learn more about you pick up your book and, you know, follow your great content? Well,
First of all, thanks for having me on Marco. This has been a lot of fun. I’ve enjoyed it and let’s do it again. People are interested in following, along with me. I have a podcast as well, and it’s called The Real Estate and Financial Independence Podcast. And a big part of what I focus on are the stories of people who are growing and building wealth. Of course, I talk about my story some, but I, I really enjoy telling other people’s stories and showing people at all different levels of the real estate climb, how are they doing it? What are the tactical sides of things? What are the struggles they’re going through? So would love to connect with everybody there. You can just search short on your favorite podcast app or on YouTube. I do a lot on YouTube these days and have my podcast and do some tutorial videos. So those are great ways to connect with me. And then of course, if you get the book, you can look for it on Amazon or on bigger pockets, either one. And it’s called Retire Early with Real Estate.
Cool. Chad, thanks for coming on. I appreciate your time. Thank
You, Marco. Have a good one.
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